Official Luthiers Forum!

I've noticed in this and other forums that we seem to have lost the ability to argue. In a technical discussion it is OK to disagree with someone as long as you confine your arguements to the points at hand. Consider the following (made up) exchange:

A: I think that the back and side wood has only a minor effect on sound.

B: I disagree. I've found that rosewood gives me a deeper sound than mahagony on the guitars that I build and on those others build.

A: All I said was what I've observed. Can't a guy say what he thinks without being jumped on!

At this point things have taken a rather odd turn. 'A' has somehow taken a legitimate disagreement personally. We all seem to have difficulty seperating ourselves from our ideas. If you disagree with me you must think that I'm an idiot. If someone disagrees with you, read the post carefully and make sure that what they have said sticks to the topic. If they have, you shouldn't really take offense. You should counter their argument with more data or clarification.

On the other had we shouldn't make an arguement a personal attack. Consider:

A: I think that tonewood has little effect on the sound.

B: Really! What planet are you living on? Rosewood is much deeper sounding than Mahagony.

In this case 'B' has clearly stepped over the line. Putting a smiley face after the comment doesn't make it OK either.

There is one area where it is legitimate to bring the personal into the discussion. That is when you feel you must question the qualifications of the poster. Consider:

A: I feel the tonewood has little effect on tone.

B: I've found that it can be important. How many instrument have you built A?

A: 2.

B: I think you might find that when you've built a few more you start to notice that wood choice can be quite important.

Of course the exchange can be handled badly:

A: I feel the tonewood has little effect on tone.

B: Have you actually built any guitars? Tonewood selection if very important.

In this example 'B' implies that 'A' is passing himself off as more of an expert than he is. Also 'B' is implying that his opinion is beyond discussion and that to disagree can only mean that 'A" doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think that not only should we keep personal attacks out of our posts, (By the way, we all seem to be doing a good job of this.) but, we should make sure that a disagreement with our ideas is just that and try not to take it personally. You don't need to apologize for having an opinion. As long as the discussion remains on the topic at hand, you should just enjoy the give and take that can make forums like this so much fun and enligntening.

You know Mike, I was really tempted to make one of my usual wise-guy attempts at humor over your post, but it has such great merit that to do so would have been unjust.

Great post.



btw, I disagree...

I can't STOP myself!
D'Oh!


Don Williams38644.4268402778

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I agree with you 100%. Maybe more.   

I think to challenge our ideas in a friendly (even spirited) way helps us grow. It either helps us rethink and hone our ability to articulate our POV or perhaps opens us up to new ideas.

I try to always keep any disagreement to the issues and not the person. We are all friends and I see no reason to make any of this personal... after all... they are just guitars.

Great Post.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
We are all friends [/QUOTE]

Sweet that means I can increase my count from 2 to 445!

But yeah great post. It is hard not to make it personal, and that is
something I need to work on as well. I like my Laz a fair attitude most of
the time..

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Hey Mike
Excellant post. Sure goes a long way in explaining how to disagree without taking things personal. After all exchange of info us why were here.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Good post Mike.

We have to keep in mind the bigger we get the more personalities we encounter. We always need to read the intent of a post and not just the words. What is direct and simple to one person may be blunt and harsh to another. It really is amazing that this forum has maintained it's very personal and tight knit community feel with over 400 members and with very little discord. That is no small task. A big hand should be given to our moderator and his guru for keeping this forum as running smooth with very very little restrictions

Lance and Brock this for you two and your hard work
MichaelP38644.4501273148

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I think that not only should we keep personal attacks out of our posts, (By the way, we all seem to be doing a good job of this.)
[/QUOTE]

Well, I dissagree. I think personal insults are a great way to stimulate the dialog. Don't you. Oh, is this not the time for kidding?

Hey give me a break, I'm just working towards 1000 posts.John How38644.4521412037

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] Good post Mike.
Lance and Brock this for you two and your hard work
[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I am sure Lance will agree, that the quality of the community is more a reflection of the great folks we have as members..

but your thoughts are appreciated none-the-less.   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=John How] [QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I think that not only should we keep personal attacks out of our posts, (By the way, we all seem to be doing a good job of this.)
[/QUOTE]

Well, I dissagree. I think personal insults are a great way to stimulate the dialog. Don't you. Oh, is this not the time for kidding?

Hey give me a break, I'm just working towards 1000 posts.[/QUOTE]

Ahh, John...what do you know? Anybody who lives in a town named Cool, that regularly has temperatures over 100 degrees, has probably fried his brain!

So, now that were past the pleasantries, how the heck are you?? How are the guitar builds?

[QUOTE=John How]

Well, I dissagree. I think personal insults are a great way to stimulate the dialog. Don't you. Oh, is this not the time for kidding?

Hey give me a break, I'm just working towards 1000 posts.[/QUOTE]

Handled well, I think that kidding is almost always OK. When we speak, tone of voice carrys a lot of information as to how serious we are. That is very hard to put into a written post. On the other hand, making posts with mindless drivvel just to pad your number... Well, there should be a special room in hades. Many of us hold our post number up as a badge of honor.

here's an 8 step stress management technique recommended in the latest psychological texts. It really works . . . .

1. Picture yourself near a stream.

2. Birds are softly chirping in the cool mountain air.

3. No one but you knows your secret place.

4. You are in total seclusion from the hectic place called "the World".

5. The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade of serenity.

6. The water is crystal clear.

7. You can easily make out the face of the person you're holding underwater.

8. See, You're smiling already.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Thanks Bob, I needed that!

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Love it Bob

Since the topic is "How to debate" I'll just make a couple of points:

The first person in a debate who resorts to ad hominem attacks loses the debate. Always. Thus, stay on message. Argue the points, not the person.

A straw man argument is not only obvious, it also always loses, because it is based on a false or oversimplifed premise.

An argument based on a false dilemma wastes everybody's time, since there are always other alternatives (or else it wouldn't be a false dilemma).

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=Bobc]
7. You can easily make out the face of the person you're holding underwater.
[/QUOTE]

Note to self: Don't get on Bob's bad side.

Thanks Mike for bringing up a gently reminder to help keep this place fun and friendly place.

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom] A straw man argument is not only obvious, it also always loses, because it is based on a false or oversimplifed premise.[/QUOTE]

If I only had a brain....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Great post! I completly agree!

_________________
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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Dissagreements are fine, and are what forums are for; if we all agreed on everything, there'd be no point discussing them, correct? Correct!

What gets things fired up the wrong way are personal attacks. It's better to say "I don't agree with your thoughts that the choice in back and side woods makes no tone difference", than to say "you're wrong; the choice of woods used in the back and sides makes a huge difference".

In the first, we 'attack' the thoughts of the person, in the second, we 'atack' that person directly.

Even more important is to always leave room for the other person's ideas on ther subject, even if YOU believe it is a black and white, case closed, no two ways about it subject. Simply using the term "I believe...", or "I think...", before continuing with your ideas on the subject leaves room for th others' view(s). For example, instead of saying "the back and sides DO make a BIG difference in tone", we're better off saying "I believe the back and sides make a BIG difference". It also helps a great deal if you continue-on and explain why you think this way, and give a real-world example if possible. For example: " I believe that the back and sides amkes a BIG difference in tone: take a Martin D-18 and a D-28: same body shape, same scale, same top and bracing, yet they sound very different; the only difference is the choice of woods used in the back and sides". So, now we've not only NOT attacked the person, we gave our thoughts, complete with an example that most everyone can relate to. From here, the dialoque should continue on, and twist and turn as would any conversation.

If anyone's read any thread, here or any other place, where Al Carruth and I go at it, you'd think we hated each other's guts!<g> But it just isn't so; Al writes in a way that never attacked me personally, and I try hard to do the same; we come from absoluetely apposed ends of how we approach just about everything guitar related, yet I have the deepest respect for Al and how he goes about it, and I -think- he for me(at least, I hope...). It would be SO much easier for us to just get into a spitting match some times and get it over with, but we don't write like that because we are NOT like that. Meet me for lunch, and I'm the same person there that I am here.

The thing to avoid most in any public conversation are politics and religion. These are deeply personal choices we make; these two things are not ideas we have, but choices we make, and when someone dissagrees with your -choice-, that person has dissagreed with your deepest personal choices. Nothing good ever comes from this. So, we just don't bring it up in public. Even when I walk into your home, I don't want to see a shrine to your God, or a sign denoting your political views. I don't want to know, because I don't want my view of -you- to be skewed. Don't ask, don't tell, is at work in this regard; don't ask me my deepest personal choices, and I won't tell you(and even if you do ask, I likely won't tell you, even if I know we are of the same thoughts in ths regard). If I didn't ask them of you, don't trust them on me. Same on any internet forum...

Respectfully;

Ditto Mike. differemt opinions and idea's are great to learn from. Lance and I about a year ago in another forum had a guy who went ballistic at the idea of guitars not being exact same as Taylor or Martin and no variance was allowed as that was not traditional and tradition was only allowed. This guy was convinced that Lance knew nothing about guitars or building because he expressed as I did there was more than one way to build or tackle an issue. It was weird. I like the discussions of different opinions and ideas. If done with respect nothing wrong with that. Respect is a word often spoken, but with increase being used less between folks.

mike's points are an excellent "how to" in maintaining the spirited but respectful interchange of differing ideas that have made this place perhaps the most stimulating luthiery site around.

and whilst i would disagree with mario's opinion that there is no place in interpersonal relationships for discussions of religion and politics, or arguments even, i would wholley agree with him that injecting them into forums such as this is utterly inappropriate.crazymanmichael38645.0405439815

Does this mean I can't post any more pictures of the Liberator guitar?

p.s. Mike...that was a very good post. Mostly common courtesy and common sense. I often make jokes, BUT I never mean to hurt or offend. If and when I do tell me politely and I will do everything in my power to cure.Dave-SKG38644.5406018519

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

[QUOTE=Mario] The thing to avoid most in any public conversation are politics and religion. [/QUOTE]

Mario...you forgot "and arguing about NASCAR"

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Mike...Well said, and great food for thought! The folks here have been very patient with me when I've gotten too blunt in my posts, so it seems that others have already adopted some of your points.

[QUOTE=Mario] Simply using the term "I believe...", or "I think...", before continuing with your ideas on the subject leaves room for th others' view(s).

****MARIO...I was taught in a college writing class that using terms like "I think" or "I believe" are redundant, because any statement should be understood to be the opinion or belief of the writer. That being said, sometimes they do soften the blow, and I've used them, too. However, they should not be necessary. The READER has as much responsibility as the WRITER in any discourse.****

It also helps a great deal if you continue-on and explain why you think this way, and give a real-world example if possible.

****Absolutely!!!****

The thing to avoid most in any public conversation are politics and religion.

****I thought lutherie WAS a religion!!!****

[/QUOTE]